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When do realms matter?

While discussing a proposed new spell over email, it became pretty obvious (at least to me), that the interaction of Hermetic magic and the four realms (Faerie, Divine, Infernal, and Magic) seems to matter in some cases and not others. I'm just using the core rules for this posting and focusing on spell casting, but will reference supernatural abilities as appropriate. I'm sure I missed some things, so add them if find them. I don't think this list, by itself, answers any questions. But is intended to provide a basis for analysis. Cases where it matters: - Realm interaction (P183) - Sense Holiness and Unholiness allows a character to see into Divine and Infernal realms (P189) - Tainted vis (P190) - Limit of the Divine (P79) - Limit of the Infernal (P80) - Merinita: Faerie Magic Mystery (P92) Cases where it doesn't matter: - Second Sight and Magic Sensitivity allows a character to see into any type of realm (P189) - Creatures magic resistance works against all forms of mystical power, just like Hermetic magic resistance (P191), magic resistance and penetration based on might score (P184) Spells where it matters: - ReAq: Ward Against (X), realm-specific creatures of water (P124) - Ward Against Faeries of the Waters - ReAu: Ward Against (X), realm-specific creatures of air (P128) - Ward Against Faeries of the Air - ReCo: Ward Against (X), realm-specific creatures associated with Corpus (P134) - ReHe: Ward Against (X), realm-specific creatures associated with wood (P138) - Ward Against Faeries of the Forest - ReIg: Ward Against (X), realm-specific creatures associated with fire (P143) - ReMe: Ward Against Spirits, realm-specific spirits (P151) - Ring of Warding Against Spirits - ReTe: Ward Against (X), realm-specific creatures of stone (although I think it should be extended to match the other wards) (P155) - Ward Against Faeries of the Mountain - InVi: Guidelines (P158) - Detecting types of effects (realm-specific) - Detecting items (realm-specific) - Detecting creatures (realm-specific) - Specially designed spells to learn more about raw vis - InVi: Piercing the (X) Veil (P158) - PeVi: Guidelines (P160) - Dispel effects of a specific type (higher bonus than the general dispel) - PeVi: Demon's Eternal Oblivion: specifically demons, not other types of infernal such as diabolists or undead (see InVi for the distinctions) (P160) - PeVi: Disenchant: Hermetic items only (P160) - PeVi: Unraveling the Fabric of (X), variants for different types of non-hermetic magic (P161) - ReVi: Guidelines (P161) - Ward target against creatures based on might (realm-specific) Spells where it does not matter: - ReAn: Ward Against the Beasts of Legend - InAq: Enchantment of the Scrying Pool - InVi: Guidelines (P158) - Detecting raw vis - InVi: The Invisible Eye Revealed (P157) - InVi: Sense of Magical Power (P158) - InVi: Sense the Nature of Vis (P158) - PeVi: Guidelines (P160) - Dispel magical effects (less effective than dispelling specific types of magic) - Reduce the target's might - ReVi: Aegis of the Hearth (P161) - ReVi: Gather the Essence of the Beast (P162) To make sure we are thoroughly confused, under the description of Vim spells (P156-7), it states "Vim spells can affect magical effects proceeding from magical items, magical creatures, or demons." I'm not sure why the difference. Of course the Limits of Magic would apply.

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Kevin Says:

Reply #12 on : Thu June 17, 2010, 00:01:07

Wow - it ate all my formatting. Try this instead:

While discussing a proposed new spell over email, it became pretty obvious (at least to me), that the interaction of Hermetic magic and the four realms (Faerie, Divine, Infernal, and Magic) seems to matter in some cases and not others. I'm just using the core rules for this posting and focusing on spell casting, but will reference supernatural abilities as appropriate. I'm sure I missed some things, so add them if find them.

I don't think this list, by itself, answers any questions. But is intended to provide a basis for analysis.

Cases where it matters:

* Realm interaction (P183)
* Sense Holiness and Unholiness allows a character to see into Divine and Infernal realms (P189)
* Tainted vis (P190)
* Limit of the Divine (P79)
* Limit of the Infernal (P80)
* Merinita: Faerie Magic Mystery (P92)

Cases where it doesn't matter:

* Second Sight and Magic Sensitivity allows a character to see into any type of realm (P189)
* Creatures magic resistance works against all forms of mystical power, just like Hermetic magic resistance (P191), magic resistance and penetration based on might score (P184)

Spells where it matters:

* ReAq: Ward Against (X), realm-specific creatures of water (P124)
o Ward Against Faeries of the Waters
* ReAu: Ward Against (X), realm-specific creatures of air (P128)
o Ward Against Faeries of the Air
* ReCo: Ward Against (X), realm-specific creatures associated with Corpus (P134)
* ReHe: Ward Against (X), realm-specific creatures associated with wood (P138)
o Ward Against Faeries of the Forest
* ReIg: Ward Against (X), realm-specific creatures associated with fire (P143)
* ReMe: Ward Against Spirits, realm-specific spirits (P151)
o Ring of Warding Against Spirits
* ReTe: Ward Against (X), realm-specific creatures of stone (although I think it should be extended to match the other wards for forms other than just stone) (P155)
o Ward Against Faeries of the Mountain
* InVi: Guidelines (P158)
o Detecting types of effects (realm-specific)
o Detecting items (realm-specific)
o Detecting creatures (realm-specific)
o Specially designed spells to learn more about raw vis
* InVi: Piercing the (X) Veil (P158)
* PeVi: Guidelines (P160)
o Dispel effects of a specific type (higher bonus than the general dispel)
* PeVi: Demon's Eternal Oblivion: specifically demons, not other types of infernal such as diabolists or undead (see InVi for the distinctions) (P160)
* PeVi: Disenchant: Hermetic items only (P160)
* PeVi: Unraveling the Fabric of (X), variants for different types of non-hermetic magic (P161)
* ReVi: Guidelines (P161)
o Ward target against creatures based on might (realm-specific)

Spells where it does not matter:

* ReAn: Ward Against the Beasts of Legend
* InAq: Enchantment of the Scrying Pool
* InVi: Guidelines (P158)
o Detecting raw vis
* InVi: The Invisible Eye Revealed (P157)
* InVi: Sense of Magical Power (P158)
* InVi: Sense the Nature of Vis (P158)
* PeVi: Guidelines (P160)
o Dispel magical effects (less effective than dispelling specific types of magic)
o Reduce the target's might
* ReVi: Aegis of the Hearth (P161)
* ReVi: Gather the Essence of the Beast (P162)

To make sure we are thoroughly confused, under the description of Vim spells (P156-7), it states "Vim spells can affect magical effects proceeding from magical items, magical creatures, or demons." I'm not sure why the difference. Of course the Limits of Magic would apply.

Last Edit: June 17, 2010, 00:04:38 by Kevin

Hugh Says:

Reply #11 on : Thu June 17, 2010, 09:05:45

Kevin Said:

Wow - it ate all my formatting.

Hugh Says:

Yeah, it does that on the topic creation post, Paul told me to write my own forum app if I didn't like it! ;-)

My thinking at this point is that, in the case where the rules are all over the map which is in my mind the most friendly description of where we're in that I can come up with, we need to look at how the spell will impact future games.

Looking at it that way I'm very concerned that it will be the Swiss Army Knife of spells useful against everything that has a might (ghosts, demons, Tony's companions' artifacts, Tommy Toadstool, etc etc etc) and that seems overly effective to me.

Kevin Says:

Reply #10 on : Thu June 17, 2010, 09:37:13

Hugh,

I remember Paul's offer to let you write your own forum :)

This kind of spell wouldn't work against artifacts, there are specific rules regarding PeVi and items.

I have a hard time understanding how this is more of a swiss army knife than a regular damaging spell like Incantation of Lightning. IoL wouldn't work against a ghost, for example, but it would work fine against a demon, Tommy Toadstool, a big door blocking the way, and a guy with a sword. This spell would work against the ghost and the demon (and Tommy Toadstool if he had might), useless against a door or guy with a sword. What are we more likely to run into?

I think realms matter more for detecting and warding than for damage (but then I give you Invisible Eye Revealed and Aegis of the Hearth).

KT

Last Edit: June 17, 2010, 09:47:52 by Kevin

Hugh Says:

Reply #9 on : Thu June 17, 2010, 10:12:42

So, in other words, the rules are all over the map.

Sometimes realms matter, sometimes they don't, the only similar spell (i.e. a Vim spell designed to damage creatures with a might) is for a specific realm. You said that the realm matters more for warding than for hurting, why would that be true?

Demons != Fey though both can be creatures with might just as fire != lightning, somethings are immune to one but not the other though both can do damage.

A swiss army knife against EVERYTHING THAT HAS A MIGHT, it makes more sense if you leave in the qualifying statement at the end.

Last Edit: June 17, 2010, 10:13:28 by Hugh

Paul Says:

Reply #8 on : Thu June 17, 2010, 10:29:23

I think, too, with a level 15, chances of penetrating are fairly high, and ripping 15 points out of the creature's might is pretty potent (three shots would do in a creature with might 45; a fairly powerful creature). An equivalent level "fire" spell might do 10 points, which might not even cause a light wound (since there is the issue of soak).

Kevin Says:

Reply #7 on : Thu June 17, 2010, 13:17:23

Hugh,

Re: Why I think realms matter more for warding and detecting
1) I'm trying to find rhyme and reason in the rules (and I like tilting at windmills too)
2) The main warding spell that works regardless of realm (AotH) is a ritual and it is also Vim-based
3) The general detection spell I mentioned works only against a specific type of magic - scrying/spying
4) Damage in the rules is generally universal

Demons and Fey, despite their different origins are bound by realms when exerting their might either, outside of the same limits of magic and supremacy of the divine.

I didn't intentionally leave out the "everything with a might score" when answering your point about Swiss army knife spells. The larger point I was trying to make was that I look at this as another damaging spell with a specific application and specific limitations - it's good against creatures with might and useless against everything else. This also goes to Paul's point about fire damage. Yes - this is more effective against magic creatures than general fire damage. It's perdo vim, built to destroy magic creatures. But it's application is much narrower than fire damage (or any other element for that matter) as it's useless against creatures/people without might. As an example, by definition Hermetic magi do not have a might score, so you could hurt/kill a Hermetic mage with elemental damage and not even muss their hair with the spell that started this discussion.

I think that DoE suffers from the same problem as a number of canned spells in the book that were holdovers from previous editions. The authors were sloppy carrying over spells against the updated spell guidelines. I think there are other cases in the rules where it looks like they adapted the spell for the ranges, etc., but left in some bit of flavor text that contradicts other rules on the same page.

From a big-picture perspective I firmly believe, since this only affects creatures with might, it's application is already narrower than elemental damaging spells and is narrow enough. Narrowing it even further might cripple the application of the spell. A vim spell that works well against creatures that are essentially magical makes sense.

Kevin Says:

Reply #6 on : Thu June 17, 2010, 13:18:35

By the way - I love the lively debate to get the juices flowing before the game :)

Paul Says:

Reply #5 on : Thu June 17, 2010, 14:46:49

I have concern on a number of levels. I do not object to something being powerful in its own realm (and thus having anti-magic-creatures capacity does not offend me). However, this is a level 15 spell. I can easily see having a mastery of 2 in it, and a penetration sufficient to nail a might of 45. Thus, it provides a level 15 spell that will eliminate a broad variety of creatures in a single round (with 3 being cast and 45 points of might being stripped in one round). Additionally, bumping it to group allows the same effect for a group of might 45 creatures each round with no danger of hurting your own people. I think that is too much.

Kevin Says:

Reply #4 on : Thu June 17, 2010, 15:52:27

Paul - I appreciate your what you've stated about things being powerful in their own bailiwick. And I agree with you that for any damaging spell mastery in multi-casting and adding ten levels for "group" makes it more effective. I considered this as well when evaluating the discussion so far.

However, all of your statements regarding triple casting the spell (need to penetrate, strip 45 points of might) apply whether it is realm-specific or not.

Paul Says:

Reply #3 on : Thu June 17, 2010, 16:01:53

I think you miss an important point. It is not just those things which can apply elsewhere (group/mastery), but also the level of the spell and the expected result. A level 15 spell that can easily be expected to eliminate one (or a group) of common opponents intended to be difficult (and, yes, I expect opponents with might to be more difficult than typical mundane forces; I also see them as quite common as enemies in game) with no other balancing factor (such as soak to eliminate damage) too be too powerful.

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